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Shakeel

Manual or DSG?

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With all due respect, DSG is an auto.  The fact that a driver can choose to shift manually may be a benefit to enthusiasts, but it isn't a requirement.  We've been through this before in other threads.  Despite my allegiance to manuals, I acknowledge the competence of DSG with no compromise in performance.  Supporters have no reason to deny that it is designed to be driven automatically or manually overridden at the owner's discretion.


With respect it is not an auto, an auto gearbox has a torque converter, the DSG is a dual clutch 6 or 7 speed gearbox in whatever mode you want to have it in so it sits between a manual and an auto.

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6 minutes ago, SpursMadDave said:


 

 

 


With respect it is not an auto, an auto gearbox has a torque converter, the DSG is a dual clutch 6 or 7 speed gearbox in whatever mode you want to have it in so it sits between a manual and an auto.

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The torque converter component is a common misconception.  How an automatic transmission goes about its business is irrelevant.  The first commercially successful auto circa 1940 was GM's Hydramatic which operated via planetary gears and fluid coupling - no torque converter.  Are today's CVTs not automatic? 

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The torque converter component is a common misconception.  How an automatic transmission goes about its business is irrelevant.  The first commercially successful auto circa 1940 was GM's Hydramatic which operated via planetary gears and fluid coupling - no torque converter.  Are today's CVTs not automatic? 

I supposed the R isnt fwd either?

 

Ok it's not a conventional auto and shouldn't be classed as an auto, like I said it sits between the 2, no way is it manual but also it isnt an auto either. Best of both worlds.

 

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The manual seems to get a bit of a slating on here, mainly due to the clutch. It is a week point but don’t let it put you off. (I know you’ve already chosen the dsg this is for others that may be on the fence of which to buy). Best thing to do is test drive both and make your decision that way. 

A lot of people seem to give it a slating without even having driven one. The gear box is great. 

 

I own a manual and I love it. Don’t regret going for it over the dsg at all. Athough at the beginning seeing all the posts on here about the clutch etc made me wonder if i’d made the wrong decision but I’ve owned my car nearly 2 and a half years so far and I still look forward to driving it just as much as the day I bought it. 

I done a few small mods like removed the clutch delay valve, clutch spring and fitted a clutch stop to lose the last bit of un needed travel of the clutch pedal. This has resulted in a much smoother gear change and when pulling off its not juddery which I found it used to be. 

In regards to the dsg bangs your losing out on, I’ve got a vwr r600 intake, muffler delete and elbow with a BCS power valve cat back exhaust and it sounds great. Bangs and pops on gear changes and over run so I’m not missing out there. 

 

It also depends on what you’re going to be using the car for. If you’ll be sat in a lot of traffic and doing a lot of commuting or miles then it makes sense to get the dsg. If you’re like me and its just domestic and pleasure use, or you like 3 pedals and shifting gear yourself then the manual option is there. 

 

The dsg has its downsides too. The stop start doesn’t work as well with the dsg, people complaining about not enough engine breaking, the dead travel in the accelerator, even though its there in both models it seems to be highlighted more in the dsg. Then theres the expense if anything breaks while its out of warranty and dsg oil changes. Although I’m not sure how often this has to be done so this may not be an expense to worry about. 

 

The biggest positive of the dsg is deciding whether to going for more power. Just a simple dsg and engine remap and away you go. On the manual however you will certainly have to upgrade the clutch, which to do so is about £800-£1000. If you bought a manual they are usually about a thousand pound cheaper to buy than the equivalent dsg model so the thousand you saved can go towards a clutch. Imo the manual with a stage 1, upgraded clutch and short shifter would be more fun to drive than a stage 1 dsg car. This is just my opinion and its horses for courses. The dsg will feel faster though because no one can change gear as quick as a computer. 

 

There are pros and cons to both, it just bugs me a bit that the manual doesn’t get the recognition it deserves and gets put down by 99% of people who haven’t owned or driven one.

There are people on here who have had both and preferred  the dsg and also had both and preferred the manual. Everyone is different and so many factors can have an effect on the reasons why. 

 

Bit of a long reply but I wanted to fight our corner for the manual 😁

 

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Well said Evans and in fairness having lived with your manual car for 2 & a half years puts in a great position to vouch for the manual box.  I’m fortunate in the sense that I get my manual thrills from my E46 M3 and the DSG in this thing makes it a real rocket.  I haven’t had the car long but tbh I’m loving it at the moment.  I went onto a bypass today from a roundabout, I was at a standstill and this guy in his Audi A5 fancied himself, having been right on my arse for ages so I floored it and it was a thing of beauty to watch his white car become a white dot in my rear view mirror, the DSG shifts certainly helped

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4 minutes ago, Shakeel said:

Well said Evans and in fairness having lived with your manual car for 2 & a half years puts in a great position to vouch for the manual box.  I’m fortunate in the sense that I get my manual thrills from my E46 M3 and the DSG in this thing makes it a real rocket.  I haven’t had the car long but tbh I’m loving it at the moment.  I went onto a bypass today from a roundabout, I was at a standstill and this guy in his Audi A5 fancied himself, having been right on my arse for ages so I floored it and it was a thing of beauty to watch his white car become a white dot in my rear view mirror, the DSG shifts certainly helped

 

Oh nice mate. Didn’t realize you had an e46 m3 too. Love those, my mate had one and used to let me drive it quite often. Always fancied one myself. Prices on the incline too so definitely worth keeping hold of. 

Haha they are quick cars. The DSG definitely feels faster than the manual. 

Are you going to get it mapped or leave it as it is for now? 

I always like to enjoy the car as it is for a while first, then when you’ve got used to it or maybe getting itchy feet, go for a remap. It makes you fall in love with the car all over again. Same applies to mods I like to do them over time rather than all at once. 

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2 hours ago, SpursMadDave said:

I supposed the R isnt fwd either?

 

Ok it's not a conventional auto and shouldn't be classed as an auto, like I said it sits between the 2, no way is it manual but also it isnt an auto either. Best of both worlds.

 

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Our disagreement is mainly semantics.   Many technologies are available to avoid manual shifting.  DSG is adept at allowing (encouraging) the option of manual control, which endears it to us enthusiasts.  In our electrically  driven future, DSG, torque converters, CVT, etc. may someday be regarded as hopeless curiosities.  When you have a moment look up Hurst Dual Gate Shifter on the Internet.  Available as a factory option on certain circa 1970 Pontiac and Oldsmobile models, it was an early attempt to provide near-full manual control of a torque converter automatic.  Engineers of the era did not have the technological prowess to approach the versatility of DSG, but their hearts were in the right place.

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1 hour ago, E-V-A-N-S said:

The manual seems to get a bit of a slating on here, mainly due to the clutch. It is a week point but don’t let it put you off. (I know you’ve already chosen the dsg this is for others that may be on the fence of which to buy). Best thing to do is test drive both and make your decision that way. 

A lot of people seem to give it a slating without even having driven one. The gear box is great. 

Your comments stir my preference for manual.  But realistically DSG is the more rational choice that deserves the accolades it receives.  What bothers me slightly is how some proponents seem almost fanatic about not calling it automatic.  Someone with zero clutch experience can drive it anywhere, anytime.  That, my friends, is automatic.  It is not a demeaning description nor does it diminish the stellar qualities of manual override.  It is simply the case. 

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Our disagreement is mainly semantics.   Many technologies are available to avoid manual shifting.  DSG is adept at allowing (encouraging) the option of manual control, which endears it to us enthusiasts.  In our electrically  driven future, DSG, torque converters, CVT, etc. may someday be regarded as hopeless curiosities.  When you have a moment look up Hurst Dual Gate Shifter on the Internet.  Available as a factory option on certain circa 1970 Pontiac and Oldsmobile models, it was an early attempt to provide near-full manual control of a torque converter automatic.  Engineers of the era did not have the technological prowess to approach the versatility of DSG, but their hearts were in the right place.


Not a disagreement as such, it just irks me i guess when people say I love the auto box on an R when it plainly isnt as simple a description, I think only heap cars in the future will have manual boxes, most performance cars now have dual clutch setups which yes might make he driving experience easier but mean you can concentrate on everything else. I don't have the option anymore other than short trips in a manual and if I ever got stuck in seriius traffic I would have to pull over and wait it out unfortunately... I did actually try a manual R as when I first started looking I honestly didn't realise they did a manual, honestly the gearbox felt very smooth and soft which put me off as I prefer a more industrial shift if I do have to initiate it with my left foot!

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29 minutes ago, Cogito said:

Your comments stir my preference for manual.  But realistically DSG is the more rational choice that deserves the accolades it receives.  What bothers me slightly is how some proponents seem almost fanatic about not calling it automatic.  Someone with zero clutch experience can drive it anywhere, anytime.  That, my friends, is automatic.  It is not a demeaning description nor does it diminish the stellar qualities of manual override.  It is simply the case. 

 

I’m not denying the fact the dsg is great. You only have to do a quick search online to see how great everyone thinks the dsg box in this car is.

I’m merely stating a fact that the manual is overlooked and mocked by people that have never driven a manual R. I know a lot of it on here is banter and i enjoy the banter between us manual and dsg owners but I’m giving my point of view and fighting the corner for owners of the manual.

Although imo you definitely have to do the small mods I have done to make it how it should have been out of the factory. I’m talking the clutch stop, delay valve removal and return spring removal. These are little mods that take no time to do and make a big difference. 

 

The dsg gets the recognition it deserves if you ask me. If anyone mentions a golf r everyone bangs on about the dsg. I’m putting it out there that the manual is also great and not to turn your nose up at it. 

 

Its an auto in my eyes but I’m not getting into that argument lol. 

 

Its also the way the world is going unfortunately.  Manual performance cars are being phased out and in a few years there wont be any manufacturers producing them. That speaks volumes for how good the auto gearboxes are nowadays. Sales figures also show this. Its just a shame that the manual is dying out for those of us who prefer the manual. Its not all about quick gear changes and 0-60 times for everyone. Thats just willy waving. For me its about having a car that can do everything I ask of it from day to day but also put a big grin on my face when I want to take it through some of the welsh country side for a blast. The R isn’t the most lively car in the world but with 300bhp and 3 pedals it puts a big smile on my face and I’m more than happy with my decision to go for the manual. 

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1 hour ago, SpursMadDave said:


 

 

 


Not a disagreement as such, it just irks me i guess when people say I love the auto box on an R when it plainly isnt as simple a description, I think only heap cars in the future will have manual boxes, most performance cars now have dual clutch setups which yes might make he driving experience easier but mean you can concentrate on everything else. I don't have the option anymore other than short trips in a manual and if I ever got stuck in seriius traffic I would have to pull over and wait it out unfortunately... I did actually try a manual R as when I first started looking I honestly didn't realise they did a manual, honestly the gearbox felt very smooth and soft which put me off as I prefer a more industrial shift if I do have to initiate it with my left foot!

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I get where you're coming from about people praising DSG as an auto box when so much pleasure can be derived in manual mode.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DSG outperform manual even when left to its own devices?  That makes it praiseworthy regardless of how it's described and used.  Please continue to tolerate us curmudgeonly types for sticking with our three-pedal rides. 

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I get where you're coming from about people praising DSG as an auto box when so much pleasure can be derived in manual mode.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't DSG outperform manual even when left to its own devices?  That makes it praiseworthy regardless of how it's described and used.  Please continue to tolerate us curmudgeonly types for sticking with our three-pedal rides. 


It's good that here is a choice although seems that's going to end with the 7/7.5 if reports are to be believed.
You are right there is no possible way anyone could change up a manual anywhere near as quickly as the DSG even of the DSG is left to it's own devices.

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First post!

 

I have had a manual R since June and absolutely love it. My previous car was DSG and I nearly ignored the manual as so many posts on forums seem negative. The one thing that struck me as odd is that so many journalists who reviewed the car at launch in 2014 praised the manual box. That made me drive the manual as well and I preferred it. The only modern era hot hatch that I have driven with a nicer box is a Civic Type R - but I really could not look at that every day without feeling 🤮 😂

 

My advice to anyone who is unsure is to drive both and don't listen to anyone else's opinion. The DSG is excellent, faster and easier to drive fast. However for me the manual is more involving, engaging and really puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it. When a car has this level of performance I don't give a toss about 0 to 60 times etc only how the car makes me feel. Overall there is plenty for manual fans to like with a R. 

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21 hours ago, Shakeel said:

Hi Booth, great post, its more a case of adjusting from a manual to DSG and a sprinkle of the 30 day no quibble exchange that VW have.  I just thought I’d reach out and see what the general consensus was because if you guys had come back and said the manual is miles better than a DSG car then I would have switched the car to a manual.  Luckily for me it looks like I have bought the right car, just pulled up outside my cousin’s having driven here in the R using the manual paddles in Race mode, unfortunately got here too quickly 😂8B02BDC4-AB47-42A1-94CA-3812825CDDF0.thumb.jpeg.162af82e301fa2cd903504e302d963cf.jpeg

Wow!!!....That's a steep incline...and still no problem for the R....:lol:

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