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Shakeel

Manual or DSG?

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On 14/09/2019 at 03:18, Shakeel said:

so I floored it and it was a thing of beauty to watch his white car become a white dot in my rear view mirror, the DSG shifts certainly helped

Music to my ears...and eyes Shakeel.....Muahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...:lol::afro:

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I'm about to buy a Mk7 R myself and have been lucky enough to borrow both a DSG and a manual for a while to really compare the two before parting with any cash. I've done a lot of driving of all types in both and it has to be the manual. Tbh I only really tried the DSG because so many people rave about it or say stuff like "The car was built for the DSG box" (what does that even mean?!) but the manual is just so much more fun, and it's such a nice box as well.

Even if you're not heel-and-toeing or rev matching, there's just something really satisfying about using a clutch, changing gear manually and learning to do it well. You're also always in complete control, and there has to be something in that because all of the Ring lap records for these kinds of cars are set with manual cars where available.

In terms of the DSG being quicker, it's slightly quicker to 60 because of the launch control in the DSG and the manual's gear change at 57 mph, but over 1/4 mile they're the same, probably due to the DSG being heavier. But how many  people are honestly going to notice 0.2 or even 0.3 of a second to 60 on public roads? As far as I could tell it was imperceptible. You'd have to drive both back-to-back in identical conditions and even then would struggle to notice. Most of the time even if you decide to have a bit of a go with someone, it's in-gear and rolling rather than you setting up launch control and setting off from the lights.

As for the DSG being easier to drive in traffic, it isn't really thanks to that clever hold feature on the manual's footbrake so you can essentially apply and release the handbrake using your foot. It makes driving in stop-start traffic just as relaxing.

Ultimately they're both great cars and if you're happy with your DSG then now way is it worth swapping it for the manual, but for driving fun and connection with the car, the manual will always edge it, and it's that bit lighter and more agile around the bends, with no danger of it changing gear mid-corner (tbf the R's DSG may not do this, but virtually every other non-manual transmission I've ever driven has done it, even when in "manual" mode).

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On 14/09/2019 at 07:40, VR6_1995 said:

My R😎

Screenshot_20190914-073742_Gallery.jpg

That's really smart mate. Silver is one of the best colours and I much prefer those wheels to the Prets. They give the car a much cleaner, more mean look. I always think that the Prets look a bit faffy, almost aftermarket.
 

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15 hours ago, Howcomeit said:

I'm about to buy a Mk7 R myself and have been lucky enough to borrow both a DSG and a manual for a while to really compare the two before parting with any cash. I've done a lot of driving of all types in both and it has to be the manual. Tbh I only really tried the DSG because so many people rave about it or say stuff like "The car was built for the DSG box" (what does that even mean?!) but the manual is just so much more fun, and it's such a nice box as well.

Even if you're not heel-and-toeing or rev matching, there's just something really satisfying about using a clutch, changing gear manually and learning to do it well. You're also always in complete control, and there has to be something in that because all of the Ring lap records for these kinds of cars are set with manual cars where available.

In terms of the DSG being quicker, it's slightly quicker to 60 because of the launch control in the DSG and the manual's gear change at 57 mph, but over 1/4 mile they're the same, probably due to the DSG being heavier. But how many  people are honestly going to notice 0.2 or even 0.3 of a second to 60 on public roads? As far as I could tell it was imperceptible. You'd have to drive both back-to-back in identical conditions and even then would struggle to notice. Most of the time even if you decide to have a bit of a go with someone, it's in-gear and rolling rather than you setting up launch control and setting off from the lights.

As for the DSG being easier to drive in traffic, it isn't really thanks to that clever hold feature on the manual's footbrake so you can essentially apply and release the handbrake using your foot. It makes driving in stop-start traffic just as relaxing.

Ultimately they're both great cars and if you're happy with your DSG then now way is it worth swapping it for the manual, but for driving fun and connection with the car, the manual will always edge it, and it's that bit lighter and more agile around the bends, with no danger of it changing gear mid-corner (tbf the R's DSG may not do this, but virtually every other non-manual transmission I've ever driven has done it, even when in "manual" mode).

Very interesting and well written post....but disagree with a few points...but for me...The DSG is lots of fun and most definitely quicker than a manual...even without race mode....:smiley:

I too have driven both and I far prefer the DSG over the manual....:thumbsup:

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15 hours ago, Howcomeit said:

That's really smart mate. Silver is one of the best colours and I much prefer those wheels to the Prets. They give the car a much cleaner, more mean look. I always think that the Prets look a bit faffy, almost aftermarket.
 

Prets over Cadiz every day of the week imo.....:smiley:

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Very interesting and well written post....but disagree with a few points...but for me...The DSG is lots of fun and most definitely quicker than a manual...even without race mode....:smiley:
I too have driven both and I far prefer the DSG over the manual....
There is no right or wrong answer its whatever makes the driver feel best imo one is not better than the other but at the end of the day the DSG outsell the manual massively which is why there is talk that there will be no more manual R's...
Best of both worlds as you can be lazy or use manual mode, anyway moot point for me as I can't drive a manual for very long and certainly not in heavy traffic!
As for Cadiz over Prets but again etto

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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5 hours ago, goodbadboy said:

Very interesting and well written post....but disagree with a few points...but for me...The DSG is lots of fun and most definitely quicker than a manual...even without race mode....:smiley:

I too have driven both and I far prefer the DSG over the manual....:thumbsup:

 Manual vs DSG is definitely a case of ETTO, as personal preferences & opinions vary so widely.

 

I was a long-time manual 'box fan (over 47 years of driving), but VW don't sell a Golf R wagon with a manual 'box.  I tried the 6 speed DSG in the Mk 7 but wasn't convinced, however when the Mk7.5 came out with the 7 speed DQ381 DSG I found it was "acceptable", so I bought one.  At first I remained slightly underwhelmed, but after a few months the DSG gradually won me over.  Now I wouldn't even consider a manual R if I was buying a new one.

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8 hours ago, SpursMadDave said:

There is no right or wrong answer its whatever makes the driver feel best imo one is not better than the other but at the end of the day the DSG outsell the manual massively which is why there is talk that there will be no more manual R's...
Best of both worlds as you can be lazy or use manual mode, anyway moot point for me as I can't drive a manual for very long and certainly not in heavy traffic!
As for Cadiz over Prets emoji1787.pngemoji1787.pngemoji1787.pngemoji1787.pngemoji1787.pngemoji1787.png but again etto

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk
 

I read in Autocar recently that VAG had manufactured some 23 million DSG gearboxes since introduced in 2004.  They’ll have the hang of it now (we hope).😀

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On 16/09/2019 at 17:10, Howcomeit said:

That's really smart mate. Silver is one of the best colours and I much prefer those wheels to the Prets. They give the car a much cleaner, more mean look. I always think that the Prets look a bit faffy, almost aftermarket.
 

Thanks, I spent a long time looking for a Reflex Silver 3 door and have not seen another one since I bought mine in June!

I totally agree about the Prets, don't like them at all and preferred the Cadiz wheels even if the lacquer on one of mine has already started peeling😥

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On 16/09/2019 at 17:07, Howcomeit said:

I'm about to buy a Mk7 R myself and have been lucky enough to borrow both a DSG and a manual for a while to really compare the two before parting with any cash. I've done a lot of driving of all types in both and it has to be the manual. Tbh I only really tried the DSG because so many people rave about it or say stuff like "The car was built for the DSG box" (what does that even mean?!) but the manual is just so much more fun, and it's such a nice box as well.

Even if you're not heel-and-toeing or rev matching, there's just something really satisfying about using a clutch, changing gear manually and learning to do it well. You're also always in complete control, and there has to be something in that because all of the Ring lap records for these kinds of cars are set with manual cars where available.

In terms of the DSG being quicker, it's slightly quicker to 60 because of the launch control in the DSG and the manual's gear change at 57 mph, but over 1/4 mile they're the same, probably due to the DSG being heavier. But how many  people are honestly going to notice 0.2 or even 0.3 of a second to 60 on public roads? As far as I could tell it was imperceptible. You'd have to drive both back-to-back in identical conditions and even then would struggle to notice. Most of the time even if you decide to have a bit of a go with someone, it's in-gear and rolling rather than you setting up launch control and setting off from the lights.

As for the DSG being easier to drive in traffic, it isn't really thanks to that clever hold feature on the manual's footbrake so you can essentially apply and release the handbrake using your foot. It makes driving in stop-start traffic just as relaxing.

Ultimately they're both great cars and if you're happy with your DSG then now way is it worth swapping it for the manual, but for driving fun and connection with the car, the manual will always edge it, and it's that bit lighter and more agile around the bends, with no danger of it changing gear mid-corner (tbf the R's DSG may not do this, but virtually every other non-manual transmission I've ever driven has done it, even when in "manual" mode).

 

To be honest apart from the launch (which is entertaining😎)I am not sure how much faster the DSG cars actually are....

 

Car and Driver have timed a manual US spec R (which has slightly less power than a UK car) at 13.4 seconds over the quarter mile. Autocar and Carwow have timed a UK DSG car at exactly the same (with the 7 speed DSG box as well)?!

On forums it seems that most stock DSG cars run beween 13.1 and 13.4 seconds. So from the evidence I have seen so far there is hardly anything in it.

 

I am not criticising or having a go at DSG Rs at all, just trying to offer some balance to the performance discussion surrounding the 2 gearboxes.

 

Also when VW developed the Clubsport S to set a new FWD Ring record they deliberately chose a manual over the DSG. When asked why they said that the 20kg weight penalty would make the DSG car slower over the best part of 8 minutes..🤔 (look it up if you don't believe me!)

 

Finally when Seat went about setting a new record with a Cupra they did so in a manual car.

 

Before all the DSG owners start attacking me(😱!) I am just trying to put forward some facts as I do feel that manual Rs get slagged off online disproportionately. Any potential owners should really drive both the manual and DSG and then form their own opinion - otherwise you may regret it.

 

 

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3 hours ago, VR6_1995 said:

 

To be honest apart from the launch (which is entertaining😎)I am not sure how much faster the DSG cars actually are....

 

Car and Driver have timed a manual US spec R (which has slightly less power than a UK car) at 13.4 seconds over the quarter mile. Autocar and Carwow have timed a UK DSG car at exactly the same (with the 7 speed DSG box as well)?!

On forums it seems that most stock DSG cars run beween 13.1 and 13.4 seconds. So from the evidence I have seen so far there is hardly anything in it.

 

I am not criticising or having a go at DSG Rs at all, just trying to offer some balance to the performance discussion surrounding the 2 gearboxes.

 

Also when VW developed the Clubsport S to set a new FWD Ring record they deliberately chose a manual over the DSG. When asked why they said that the 20kg weight penalty would make the DSG car slower over the best part of 8 minutes..🤔 (look it up if you don't believe me!)

 

Finally when Seat went about setting a new record with a Cupra they did so in a manual car.

 

Before all the DSG owners start attacking me(😱!) I am just trying to put forward some facts as I do feel that manual Rs get slagged off online disproportionately. Any potential owners should really drive both the manual and DSG and then form their own opinion - otherwise you may regret it.

 

 

Agreed. I thought the DSG in the R was great as DSGs go, but in any situation that didn't use launch control it felt no quicker whatsoever, and from what you've said (and from what I keep reading in all these independent tests) that's because it actually isn't any quicker unless you don't know how to change gear properly using a clutch and a gearstick.

It's fair enough people saying ETTO where DSG and manuals are concerned, but having been lurking on here a while I keep seeing prospective buyers being pushed towards the DSG based on false assertions like it's faster or it's somehow "the future". I think it's more accurate to say that it's easier to drive fast, especially if you're not so great at quick, smooth gear changes, because if all you have to do is steer, accelerate and brake then it's one less thing for you to worry about. But I dare say that for any given car, if it came down to setting a lap record and the driver taking on the task had the choice of a manual or a non-manual, they'd pick the manual every time, because once you're good at driving a manual you'll be able to drive it quicker than the equivalent DSG/whatever.

I can't deny that it's true that more cars are going the DSG/auto route but I'd argue that's because more people just want an easy drive, not because manuals are inferior. And in fact some manufacturers have gone the other way. When Porsche got rid of the manual box from the GT3 and GT3 RS there was uproar and so they released the 911-R for £150k. Demand for them was so crazy that people were paying closer to £500k for one. They then brought back the manual box on the GT3s. Similar story with Aston Martin and the Vantage, and the head of BMW's M Division has publicly stated that they'll keep making manuals for at least another 10 years. Other renowned driver's cars like the Civic Type R and Focus RS have only ever been manual only.

The manual box in the R is excellent as well. It deserves more praise. But as I already said to OP, the DSG Golf R is a great car. I'm not slagging off the DSG, but take away the launch control and it's just a heavier, less engaging version of the manual. However as VR6_1995 said, anyone thinking of buying should give both a try and then decide for themselves. Just don't expect any noticeable performance difference from the DSG, because you'll be disappointed.

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As many have said, it is ETTO. I would expand that for enthusiastic drivers to: each to their own ability.

I am no driving god and know for sure that me using a manual would be left well behind by me using a DSG. I have never really mastered heel & toe techniques so, coming to a corner in a manual, I am either braking or changing gear whereas, with a DSG, I can do both. The same lack of technique means that, in the manual, I am far more likely to be in the wrong gear.

In addition I feel that the lower "workload" of a DSG makes it easier to concentrate on braking points, lines through the corners, etc., especially over a length of time.

Having driven manuals for most of my life, I totally agree that dropping a gear with perfect timing is far more involving and satisfying. Of course, I could work on my technique but, meh, I can live without it. Then there are the secondary issues: more relaxed cruising with the higher 7th ratio; ease of use in traffic; no risk of "buzzing" the engine with a missed downshift.

Just my two penneth.

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